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The Force -> SEAL = SEAL 3 (propose)
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Fenix*NBK*



Joined: 29 Nov 2003
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you said: ultimate engine for 2D graphics... OK.

then I have to say that my engine is at *high* level.
I mean that it can't replace the underlying technology,
but (for me) it simplifies interface.
(and allows new features, that doesn't exist, say in Win32 GDI)

But GDI+ has *MOST* of those my features.
I just made them a year or 2 earlier than Microsoft made .NET with GDI+.
Overall GDI+ is a killing technology.
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BadSector
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And borland has probably done it before you with the TCanvas of Delphi and C++ Builder .

The world is full of 2D and 3D engines.

Well i shouldn't say that allegro is the ultimate engine, but at least is the ultimate engine from those i know .

Another "ultimate" (but not portable) engine is DirectX. It can do more things than Allegro, but it's Win32-specific.
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Fenix*NBK*



Joined: 29 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you said: DirectX can do a lot of things:
well, it can't. Instead YOU have to do a lot of work to get it working.
DX is a low-level engine.
DX is damn fast.

I worked with DirectDraw.
I have spent a whole DAY just to make it run.
DX is one of the world's most difficult engines. Extremely unfriendly.
On the other way AAuto2D is very friendly.
With a bit of work, I could get AAuto2D on top of DirectDraw,
having easy interface, lot-of-features, and damn speed.

AAuto2D itself is slow. Actually it slowed down DX, but because
the speed was extremely high, I got more than 60 fps
with this whole set.

I simply got the best parts of DX and AAuto2D in single app.

Actually, you *CAN* get the ultimate DX-like engine run under DOS.
Crystal Space can do most of the stuff DX can. (at DX speeds)
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Fenix*NBK*



Joined: 29 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK. Let's change topic a bit.

How do you plan to develop Seal 3.0,
and what features do you want to put there,
and how will it look like?
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crashfourit



Joined: 10 Dec 2003
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good question.
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_xduffy_
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, with whatever authority I may have left as the ex-maintainer, I say ok.

Any kind of movement for Seal is good. Especially if Kostas is the one driving it. I have followed the Seal community from day one, so I know very well about your good work. So I wish you good luck and it's only good if you go ahead with it. The whole community will benefit from it.

I prefer to trust Kostas who have a long history in the community, and who actually have some code to show and commit, over some unknown guy who have wild ideas and thinks he can conquer the world with some imaginary project that doesn't even have any code.

Nuff said?
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crashfourit



Joined: 10 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

very good point!
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biggyp



Joined: 16 Oct 2001
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, i tried to post this a few hours ago, but the SF servers weren't responding at that time, so, rather than waste all that effort here it is anyway, even if all these issues have already been addressed i apologise in advance.

Fenix*NBK* wrote:
BadSector: - I really like that Seal will be something major.

I looked at "The Force v0.30" - it is MUCH weaker than seal,
besides the mouse flickers when moved over an animated windows. But this can be solved with double buffering.


of course it's much weaker than SEAL, it's only gone through a couple of releases and has had one developer, the most important thing about The Force is that it's screen drawing routines are 400% faster, if Kostas is going to be working on the merging the two projects then i have every confidence in something wonderful comming out of it

Quote:

One question: While would you like to drop Allegro ???
Is it for DOS only? Or it works under Windows and Linux?


can't answer that completely, but it is a crossplatform library that works accross DOS, Linux, Win32, etc. however, it is very much a games programming lib, i don't know the technical reasons for breaking away from alleg(other than the screen modes), maybe forking allegro would be easier than starting from scratch.

Quote:

Anyway - The Force v0.30 can't be converted to Seal 3.0, because it is not ready yet.


because what's not ready yet? the force, or SEAL 3.0?

again, i can't speak for kostas here, but i guess he'll work on completing features as he works on the project.

Quote:

Considering Graphics API:
Well, I point the way to my own engine at: (Pre-Last)

http://sealsystem.sourceforge.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=749&start=15

Maybe I will use GPL or BSD license for it.
(I haven't used anything yet)

With such an engine for a major start, Seal 3.0 will be able to
get new apps quickly.


erm, why will that help? you say it's an MFC application, does that make it portable?! or is it a crossplatform implementation of MFC allowing for portability on MFC apps to the platform? oh, and what kind of screen modes are supported?

Quote:

=======================================
And yes - I believe that Seal 3.0 *MUST* be able
to work under DOS, Windows and Linux.


well, that's most important from the hobbyist point of view, SEAL3 will need to be crossplatform partly for the sake of programming ease, and obviously also for enthusiastic users enticed in via OSNews or slashdot who can run it quickly and easily on win32 and have the oooooh factor

Quote:

By the way:
Working under: DOS, Windows and Linux.
Is quite achievable if we use Crystal Space.

Then we will get a new headache:
(Disadvantage)
learn this technology. It is written in C++.

Advantages:

- No problems with fast, double-buffered 2D graphics, 3D graphics, Windows with elements like buttons, and other APIs.
- Platforms: (DOS, Windows, Linux, MAC OS/X supported),
- besides they have something called VFS (Virtual File System)

CS was started as a 3D engine, and now it's a cross-platform framework.

For me, Crystal Space is far more than engine. Actually, it's somewhere between 3D Engine and a separate OS (!).

If we use the Crystal Space approach, then we'll have to port
only the Seal desktop, and the Seal apps (Since APIs are provided by CS). It is licensed under LGPL, so no problems here too.


none of the literature on their website gives the impression that it's suitable for our requirements

Crystalspace wiki wrote:

"Crystal Space currently runs on GNU/Linux, general Unix, Windows, Windows NT, and MacOS/X. It can optionally use OpenGL (on all platforms), SDL (all SDL platforms), X11 (Unix or GNU/Linux) and SVGALIB (GNU/Linux). It can also optionally use assembler routines using NASM and MMX."


so, it's a renderring framework/engine, but it is not a standalone graphics library like allegro, it requires SDL/X/SVGALIB to support it, and none of those are supported on our primary target OS(DOS)

anyway, even if it were workable on DOS, why the hell would we want to move from allegro to CS, tying ourselves to a bloody great 3D graphics framework, when all we want is a slimline GUI to complement freeDOS, fine, make SEAL extensible, but not by basing it on CS.

may be a strange idea, but once SEAL's sorted out to some extent, what are the chances of a port of Glib2 and GTK? that really would make a lot of apps available quickly, and it's something that the SkyOS people seem to want to do(someone turned up on the GUG forums inquiring about porting GIMP to SkyOS a while back.)

now, i'm not wanting to put anyone off, but i want to make sure people are fairly well grounded and understand the requirements.
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biggyp



Joined: 16 Oct 2001
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

david, absolutely, oyama's presence on the project was totally useless, i'm assuming that's who you're talking about

so, i look forward to seeing your work when it's ready for a first preview, but i understand that it's not your top priority

oh, btw, is this something you guys are going to want to just discuss here, or pass on the news to the FreeDOS people?
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poundsmack



Joined: 31 Dec 2002
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

actualy crystal space was avalible for dos and sdl is on dos so there were to inacuracies from someone. jsut thoguht i would clear that up
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biggyp



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i had a feeling there might be, but it wasn't something mentioned on the supported platform section of the CS website.

in fact, CS is available to allegro as well as SDL, so i suspect that you could make use of it to write 3D apps on SEAL.

anyway, thanks for the corrections

oh, and one last random thing, how possible would it be to port standalone Allegro games to run windowed(or maybe even mode switching for fullscreen) under SEAL(current or future versions)? i ask because i remember The PAW's author did so.
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crashfourit



Joined: 10 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i would create new allegro screen drivers that use Seal3 api (windowed api [note: possible recursive problem])

or

have the drivers flip a semiphore to tell Seal3 not to draw on the screen, then flip it again to tell Seal3 that it can draw on the screen again.
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BadSector
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Joined: 24 Oct 2001
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Force's window drawing algorithm (which i'll use for SEAL 3) is clever enough to not try to draw a window that is completelly overlapped. Now if you think that the top window is always the first window in an internal list and the drawing loop starts from the first window, you can make the window to take over the whole screen.

Julien tried to do the same (taking the whole screen) in SEAL 1.x/2.x with one of his games, but unfortunatelly SEAL's habbit to draw *everything* murdered the framerate .

I can put 1-2 simple lines of code to make the algorithm check if the first window takes up the whole screen and if so to just not draw everything else. This will have a very small (but noticeable if there are a lot of opened windows with skinning enabled) speed incrase.

About 3D i'm thinking a port of an existing OpenGL implementation (MESA?).

GTK is a very good idea. However my last try failed. It's very hard. Also i think that SEAL really needs multitasking support. I'm working on it and i believe that i'll have results soon. However with multitasking, the method that SEAL/TheForce applications work must change. It can still be event-driven, but *at least* a message (or something) loop like:

Code:

// blocks until a call that wants the application to exit
RunApplication();


or

Code:

while (ApplicationRunning())
{
        // Do some stuff (f.e. rendering a screen)

        // Exit from the current process (this isn't needed, but gives the rest
        // timeslice to other processes who may need it)
        ExitFromProcess();
}


Again this is how most other multitasking systems works and allows us to get rid of stuff like "CreateTask", "DeleteTask", etc which just executes functions in spare time. Also allows us to use GDK, which -in turn- allows an easier port of the most-wanted application, Mozilla (it's most wanted because it's a web browser and it's the best web browser).

For porting applications generally, i think that we need to implement: threads, console and decent window functions. Then we need to port: SDL (this should be easy - i'm telling it without knowing SDL's internals, but it's just a wrapper , GDK, GCC (seems funny? hehehe - well we need GCC to run nativelly under SEAL - that will be easy, i think only we have to recompile it with console support and make LD to produce SEAL executable files without the need of an external program), OpenGL (for 3D)..
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crashfourit



Joined: 10 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personaly, i think that Seal3 or perhaps Seal4 should have its own 32 bit OS kernel (i'm thinking of writing one myself), or, at least, its own DOS extender. Both hould have at least be able to handle multiple prosesses.

I'm not saying that there could be a place for Seal enviroments on other OS's.

Could there be a place for double buffering if an app wants it??
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Fenix*NBK*



Joined: 29 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Question about AAuto2D:
>erm, why will that help? you say it's an MFC application, does that make >it portable?! or is it a crossplatform implementation of MFC allowing for >portability on MFC apps to the platform? oh, and what kind of screen >modes are supported?

It is started as an MFC project, but only recently I made it cross-platform.
It has a style, which reminds MFC a little.
While making it cross-platform, I moved a lot of original features to Win32 port. (So under Win32 it has twice features)
For other features, I made my own emulation, so they are cross-platform.

Since this is a hi-level API it does *NOT* support screen modes.
It works with any resolution, but only in 32-bit environment.
(32-bit OS, and 32-bit per pixel settings are requirements)
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