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The Force -> SEAL = SEAL 3 (propose)
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Fenix*NBK*



Joined: 29 Nov 2003
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those cross-platform libraries will be used later in order to build a VM-like technology (VM=Virtual Machine) It must have the following:

1) All official version *MUST* be backwards compatible.
2) The binary, once built *WILL* run on any supported platform unmodified. (That's a bad idea to recompile everything everytime)
3) The API must be very powerful, convenient.
(Besides Open-Source community needs something like C#, .NET,)

I don't say that it's a one day work. It's much longer than that.
We can start from simple *abstract things* like cross-platform
2D graphics, data types and simple windowing.

4) It must be stable. By meaning stable I mean managed code.
No unsafe pointers like in C/C++.

I want to stop the whole crazzy thing about compiling once for MAC, then for Windows, then for Red Hat, then for Debian...
===============================================
Today, my AAuto2D engine has cross-platform 2D graphics (hi-level),
and some data-types. (It's not yet licensed, but if it comes to Seal3 development I can license it with GPL)

But since it's built with C++, it's:
a) unsafe code
b) must be recompiled with each platform to run
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crashfourit



Joined: 10 Dec 2003
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless you use omthing like Java, you will have too recompile for differnt prossesor families.
(sorry for spelling)
I sujest that we impliment standerd C library for Seal.
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biggyp



Joined: 16 Oct 2001
Posts: 1473
Location: England, United Kingdom

PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fenix*NBK* wrote:
Those cross-platform libraries will be used later in order to build a VM-like technology (VM=Virtual Machine) It must have the following:


huh? are things getting confused here? SEAL3 will be designed to run atop DOS, the only thing we'll need a VM for is maybe a DOS Console.

Quote:

1) All official version *MUST* be backwards compatible.


versions of what?

Quote:

2) The binary, once built *WILL* run on any supported platform unmodified. (That's a bad idea to recompile everything everytime)


well, since FreeDOS isn't overly portable i don't see that this will be a problem.

3) The API must be very powerful, convenient.
(Besides Open-Source community needs something like C#, .NET,)
[/quote]

the opensource community has C# with GTK bindings(via mono), oh, and java.

Quote:

I don't say that it's a one day work. It's much longer than that.
We can start from simple *abstract things* like cross-platform
2D graphics, data types and simple windowing.


are we getting confused again here, SEAL is targetted at DOS on x86 and compatibles

Quote:

4) It must be stable. By meaning stable I mean managed code.
No unsafe pointers like in C/C++.

I want to stop the whole crazzy thing about compiling once for MAC, then for Windows, then for Red Hat, then for Debian...
===============================================
Today, my AAuto2D engine has cross-platform 2D graphics (hi-level),
and some data-types. (It's not yet licensed, but if it comes to Seal3 development I can license it with GPL)

But since it's built with C++, it's:
a) unsafe code
b) must be recompiled with each platform to run


well, AFAIK everything will be in C, so i don't know what you suggest really.[/quote]
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Fenix*NBK*



Joined: 29 Nov 2003
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. Something like Java. (but with C++ like syntax)
One question here: Why don't I see "serious apps" built for Java.

For Example: OpenOffice.
If it was for Java, then if we port Java to seal, all it's apps will run too.
What problems does Java have?

speed?
license?
extreme difficulty of porting Java to seal?
is there an OpenSource alternative to Java?
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Fenix*NBK*



Joined: 29 Nov 2003
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyway, we could try to implement something like Java in Idea,
but OpenSource, GPL, and with C++ syntax.
It would be great just to *port* that one VM to Seal and *get* everything else.
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Fenix*NBK*



Joined: 29 Nov 2003
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please don't get angry on me, but really, for a new OS, a deployment of Java-like machine can be critical, because then we'll get a tons of new software, without writing it on Seal.

Otherwise everything must be made from scratch.
In our case Java isn't bad idea.
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Fenix*NBK*



Joined: 29 Nov 2003
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will it be possible to use C#, .NET with Seal in the future?
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Grym



Joined: 19 Nov 2003
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2003 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fenix*NBK* wrote:
Will it be possible to use C#, .NET with Seal in the future?


Well, I guess anything is possible, it`s only a matter of available knowledge , and will + time.
knowledge can be aquired for anyone that has sufficient will and time...

BadSector, I`m looking forward to see what direction the project does take, myself I would like to, in time, do some work in the development-tools area, since that is what i enjoy most, and also has a little experience with, currently I`m a Pascal-kind of freak, but reading C/C++ at the moment, and starting to get the hang of it, so there might be a hope... Mr Green


Last edited by Grym on Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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_xduffy_
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Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 894
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2003 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fenix*NBK*: I really hope you can take this right, but; Shut up! Don't post 3 posts after eachother and stop repeating the same thing over and over again. ok? No offense meant, but you have to calm down a little.

To implement java for Seal, sure do it, but its a stupid idea, at least for now. We are just seeing the dawn of new development of Seal itself which really needs it, we aren't like 50 programmers here, there are 1 outspoken (kostas) and maybe some others hanging around and thinking about what to do (myself and maybe others). Realize that Java is slow compared to native code, especially on older hardware, which is the main target for Seal.

Programs that are well-written in C and C++ wont take too much effort to port to Seal, at least not the ones that aren't huge. And by the way, please mention the great apps in Java that we need? A wordprocessor, an internet browser, mail app and more is what we need, and those things are better to implement ourselves or port existing ones from Linux. They will run much much faster on old hw.
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BadSector
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Joined: 24 Oct 2001
Posts: 328
Location: Greece, Samos

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Fenix:
There is an "edit" feature in these forums dude .

Well, there are "serius" applications for Java. There are word processors and such tools. Also there are development tools like Sun's JavaOne and Borland's JBuilder. Also i think that IBM's Visual Age is made in Java (VAge is a very nice programming tool that puts the RAD standards way far and lets you write programs without or almost writing code).

However think that Java is mostly for network applications. So you'll find one office-like program for one hundred (100) network programs. Also there are some nice games written in Java. Again, Java is needed for web support.

And there is a GPL Java virtual machine: Kaffe, http://www.kaffe.org/. We just have to port Kaffe to SEAL3 .

Well, i'll leave that to someone else (Fenix? )
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Grym



Joined: 19 Nov 2003
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BadSector wrote:
@Fenix:
...

And there is a GPL Java virtual machine: Kaffe, http://www.kaffe.org/. We just have to port Kaffe to SEAL3 .

Well, i'll leave that to someone else (Fenix? )


Won`t be bad, won`t be a bad idea at all! As this does give the system even more options, and options is what can make a system preferable? isn`t it? at least sometimes? or is it just me?? Mr Green


However, merry X-mas to all of you geeks out there, hope you all get new fresh sourcecode from Santa
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BadSector
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Joined: 24 Oct 2001
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you think that hundeds of applications will be available to SEAL3 if a Java VM is available for it, then i think that it won't be bad at all .
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biggyp



Joined: 16 Oct 2001
Posts: 1473
Location: England, United Kingdom

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmmm, wonder how that Java version of OO.o is...
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_xduffy_
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Joined: 15 Mar 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for being so hard. I am not against having a Java vm for Seal, not at all, it's just that someone have to do it and it wont be me and maybe not Kostas either... It will take a lot of effort to make Kaffe really usable under Seal...
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Fenix*NBK*



Joined: 29 Nov 2003
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am sorry for posting that much.

please don't get angry on me. Just I was "thinking" in this forum,
instead of post only the "results".

While it comes to me, my knowledge really disallows me to port a major app like Java VM to Seal.
But I will stay on-line.
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