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Radical new proposal
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biggyp



Joined: 16 Oct 2001
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2002 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i've had a quick play with the idea...


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[ This Message was edited by: biggyp on 2002-06-03 15:23 ]
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Iamryan2002



Joined: 09 Apr 2002
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Location: San Diego, California United States

PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2002 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While the rewrite is being done, there should still be some releases... if it is okay, I could still keep HybridOS in development, until the rewrite is complete, that way something is still being released...

Does this make sense... it does to me, but it may not to you...

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JGX22



Joined: 04 Apr 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2002 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think HybridOS should still continue, atleast then I can see if I'm any good with developing. I also think the .12 kernel should be released as well. Considering that it might be the last 2.xx release. I would like to see how far Seal has gone since .11 even if it wasn't much...
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Amos Vryhof
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2002 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an idea.... It's kinda like the Windows NT vs. Windows 9x thing.

While planning for Seal 3.0 (we should really have a seperate forum area for this) Seal 2.00.xx can continue to be released.

This way; Seal 2.xx.xx applications wouldn't need to be compatible with Seal 3 applications...

Ultimately, when Seal 3 is finally released, Seal 2.xx.xx will still be advanced and feature rich, but Seal 3.0 will be the preferred system.

Planning:

  1. Brainstorming - Come up with ideas, support them and be sure to include ideas on implimentation.

  2. Evalulating - Break ideas down by importance, and feasability. Work on easy things first, then get more complicated.

  3. Organizing - Write a manifest and attack plan proofread it, post it, let everyone have their go at it, and work out a final version

  4. Planning/Gathering - Gather the information on how to impliment features, and write simple documentation on your plans...once again, let everyone go over it for possible flaws

  5. Implimentation - Put your code into a compiler and make your ideas work...perhaps an interractive development server....where people can work on the source code in realtime (I might dedicate my linux box for this)



I would love to see Seal for Linux...I could build a scaled down (smaller than ZipSlack) version of Slackware with Seal for a really nice system....

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tobbe_sn



Joined: 01 Dec 2001
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2002 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK James (and everybody else), so you'll have to learn a lot of new stuff when the API changes. But really, isn't this a great opportunity to get to know the new Seal, to help creating it from the start? And since they're both GUIs some things will probably work in a similar way, which means that your newly gained knowledge won't be wasted. Besides, the new Seal will probably be a he** lot easier to use...

The same goes for the old source code. Even if we rewrite everything it doesn't mean that all work we've put into Seal is wasted! We've learned a lot from it and maybe we can use some of the old parts/ideas with some modifications, or at least get inspiration from them... Of course it will be hard work but if we do most of the planning and set up a realistic schedule before we start, use tasklists etc. we will make it. We are a team, right? Besides, this will probably also make our team a lot tighter...

First of all I think we should come up with something that seems to have been missing from the very beginning: some kind of goal. What do we want Seal to be? Is it going to be *just* a GUI with no specific aim (as it has been until now), or is it going to be more specialized? I think Owens ideas about a modular approach sounds interesting where the goal is a GUI with maximum portability (for multiple platforms?). What do you think? In any case I think some kind of goal is crucial for any project. Oh well, these are just my thoughts...

Yes, I am trying to fill up the forum database by myself. Someone please make me stop...


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2002 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

obviously there are advantages and disadvantages to starting fresh... the real question is whether the current situation calls for it. i, for one, believe that it does. reflection upon a project always produces a list of things that could have been done better. if these improvements can be made with the current code, then that avenue should be pursued. however, if the new goals and direction of the project requires a new start, then little option exists. with patience everyone will benefit from the final product (assuming that the programmers are dedicated). i suggest we learn from the mistakes of the past and try to make something better (even if it takes a few sacrifices). i also think that major rewrites can be avoided in the future if the coders stick to a modular plugin design. each plugin can be developed and altered independantly of one another. if problems can be isolated to a particular plugin then everything from small changes to large overhauls can flow much more easily. it also provides a nice way to make sense of such a large project and divide work among multiple programmers who can specialize only on those areas to which they are most qualified. the only issue here is to lay out a really stable and expandable framework in the beginning that can endure over time. this is *not* something that seal2 has and that is why it must be reformed.
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JGX22



Joined: 04 Apr 2002
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2002 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, since so many people seem to agree that this is best I will have to go along. I'm just worried that I won't understand C++ or the new programming style. If it is easier then I will give it a shot. I will try to make a coupl of ports for Seal2.xx, but most of my time will be spent learning C++ now, so I will have a head start and truly be able to help with the building of a new Seal version. I take it this rewrite means the exclusion of most everyone's old code? Rewrite it under GPL but without using, say, Callum's or Julien's code which has caused problems before....
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JGX22



Joined: 04 Apr 2002
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Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2002 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should've added this before. Everyone who posts should be required to register and login. This way we know who is saying what and not trying to guess who anonymous people are

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BadSector
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2002 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a response to Amos's suggestion...

i was always saying that this "compatibility" things is something stupid. Why? Because SEAL doesn't have tons of applications that if we loose them, we loose SEAL. SEAL has just 10-20 applications and all of their creators are active and they have their sources. So if SEAL's API changes they have just to recompile or in the case of SEAL3, port them to the new API.

Or just loose them (except SIMP and maybe some desktops, all other programs are very simple and their loose isn't something terrible).

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orudge
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Joined: 07 Oct 2001
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JGX22: When I suggested we used C++, I was not planning on using very advanced C++ (eg, templates, streams, etc, etc), but just basic to medium-level things (eg, classes, basic inheritance, etc).

Kostas: Seal 3.0 will not be compatible at binary or source level with 2.0 or earlier - we want to do away with the old mess that is SEAL as it is right now.

The rewrite should be without using any of the old code. The older code can be looked at for reference, but if our design specifications and so on are detailed enough, we shouldn't really need to look at old code too much.

I will probably set up a forum for Seal 3.0 development. We can start planning as soon as we want - the sooner the better, IMO.

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Amos Vryhof
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2002 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree 100% with you Kostas....

JGX22....once the objects are done, C++ is usually quite a bit easier than C....

Rathern than using

Close(Window)

there could be a window object and it's as simple as

window.close

The cool thing is that an object acts alot like a data type...

Example (please don't flame, I'm very rusty at thus)
Code:

class window
{
public:
   // Variables within a class
   int x;
   int y;
   long width;
   long height;
   char caption[];
   bool showclose;
   bool showmax;
   bool showmin;
   
   // Functions within a class (methods)
   int close();
   int maximize();
   bool hidden();
   ...
}


Yes, I know I left out operators and some of the other goodies in classes, but it's just a rough example... Also, you can have internal and external variables, and a whole lot more.

Do you see why Owen wants to use C++ it's very easy to understand, and what the code does is more obvious 2,3 or 4 years later when you go back to debug something.

I have to say I like it, but then again I have been playing with OO programming for awhile....

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orudge
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2002 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes - that's why I want to use C++. C++ also enforces stricter coding rules, so much of the sloppy coding present in SEAL 1.x and 2.x would not be allowed in 3.0. (I had some problems when I was working with SealAmp trying to set the font for something from C++ - C++ didn't like the way SEAL did it, because the code was sloppy, in a way)

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Iamryan2002



Joined: 09 Apr 2002
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2002 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my proposal... I plan on continuing HybrdOS development in 2.0.XX until I decide to migrate to 3.0 (When Developed of course..)

Until then, I will continue with the current dev... I am not planning on being really active with the new dev...

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JGX22



Joined: 04 Apr 2002
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2002 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The C++ code does look easier to understand. I have C++ for dummies and I will be reading that from now on and try to learn it as fast as possible. If I have the time from learning C++ and making apps for dos in C++ I will try to make a few things for HybridOS. The more I think about it I agree that maybe a remake would be good.
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orudge
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2002 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK. It'll probably be a while before any code is written, but hopefully planning will commence soon.

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